Due South: Dr. Caroline Mose Talks Kenyan Youth And Elections.

Ladies and gentlemen good morning good evening good afternoon whenever and wherever you're listening to us from this is the due south podcast with me your host wilfred minor africa correspondent for warfronts fronts.co and all our other associated properties and today i am joined by a very special guest someone whose work i have had a chance to include in my

Own writings multiple times when i was covering the protests in kenya when i was covering the impact of rila fingers death on kenya's political scene and what that would mean for the future of our country and basically whenever there was a youth protest and i felt like i could include hawak organically it was always a pleasure getting to feature hawak our

Guest today is dr caroline mosey dr caroline is the host of the under the acacia podcast it's part of the naboisho leadership institute's body of work she's the founder and executive director of the institute and she's honestly one of the most brilliant people you'll ever encounter and honestly i'm not doing a good enough job of just describing how brilliant

She is so let's pass the mic on to the good doctor and allow her to introduce herself doc talk to the people doc talk to the people you'll hear her to talk to her and she's the founder and the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and

She's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's

The founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's founder and she's the founder and she's the founder and she's doc talk to

The people and she's the founder and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her

Husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband

And her husband and husband and her husband and her husband and her husband her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and husband her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and

Her husband and her and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her and her husband and her doc talk to the people and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her

Husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband

And her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her

Husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband and her husband it's taken me over 15 years to get here my path has taken me through academia I have taught at a public university here in Kenya for over seven

Years I have worked in market research across the continent all the way into West Africa I've even lived in Lagos for a number of months as a market researcher I've done program leadership, philanthropy, I have and now I'm sitting in a space where I working and helping universities, foundations, employers, even governments translate evidence that strategize

And strengthen education to work pathways and leadership development so that is me in a nutshell in terms of the professional and the education I have a PhD in African studies and cultural studies that allows me to sit in this space where I can then research and understand the issues that I have just mentioned and so here we are in my spare time I write

Stories, I write novels, I climb mountains and I parent to hopefully very happy children so that's me in a nutshell and I'm quite happy to here, thank you Thank you Doc, you are one of the most accomplished guests I have ever had and I think so far the only guest who has had a chance to live in Lagos because I have been there briefly and I said I will never

Go back because of the traffic, the traffic was honestly something I never wanted to deal with again and you know I thought Nairobi traffic was bad but you know Lagos showed me a whole different, a whole different mess and for audience I just want to let you guys know The Good Doctor is a really, really accomplished writer, her work is absolutely brilliant

Doc, we cannot wait for your books to come out from what I've managed to read of your research that's online and you know the tweets you make, you are a really accomplished writer and I say this as someone who thinks of himself as a good writer I actually have a story that was shortlisted for the King Prize for African writing it's called Jabba, Jabba

Stories, I've written a story about Jabba Stories, it's called Jabba and it's in Lollwe, if go to Lollwe and look for it you'll find it I have a couple of stories, short stories out there but I also can't wait to bring out my novel I'm actually looking for a publisher as we speak and I'm in that process so I can't wait to bring these stories to and I hope

You'll all enjoy reading them as much as I've enjoyed writing them Alright, so if there's any publisher in our audience, if there's anyone with connections in the publishing world please, please reach out, we'd love to see The Good Doctor's work published so yeah now let's move on to our main topic of the day we are going to talk about the Kenyan youth the

Kenyan youth protests and where that anger has gone to because the initial wave of protests happened in 2024 about two years ago as we are recording this and just to give our audience a temporal signpost of where we are at today is the 28th of July 2026 this podcast will come out about three weeks from now so just to give you an idea of where we are at in

Terms of space and time so doc take us through the first wave of the protests what made Kenyan youth so angry that they went out into the streets to protests and then we'll take it from there right so before we start on the genesis of the protests I always like to preface the protests because there is an assumption that these protests are very special and

They came out of nowhere and they came from a singular moment and then they became now what are known as the 2024 Gen Z protests but I always like to give a bit of a bit of a context and a bit of a background as to why the protest why this anger that came about you have to first of all in that same 2024 and into the previous year of 2023 we did have a very

Organic protests around femicide and around sexual violence and I think this was in 2023 or in early 2024 actually around January February where there was a end femicide protests in Nairobi where there were no politicians on the podium and in fact when the current or then and current Nairobi women's representative attempted to snatch the microphone and

Snatch the moment of the protest and turn it into a form of political mileage I remember the women that were present actually told her to step aside because this was not about her and in that moment something happened because protests before that in Kenya have always unnecessarily centered politicians the late Raila Amon Odinga for example used to be the

Face of the protests and I mention him at this point because during the Gen Z protests which started in a very organic citizen-led manner I remember young people in the streets because it wasn't just you know it was the entire month leading up to the reading of the 2024 finals bill I remember young people telling you know you we wanted to stay home don't

Come out into the streets you have been doing this for so long we've learned this from you we've picked this from you stay home we've got it from here this is this is this is now our thing you stay home we you know you we have seen you have taught us we are taking this forward of course it didn't end up like that at the end of the day etc but there has been

You know in that year and in the previous year there were pockets of protests that were not centered on politicians so that's the first preface that we to start with for us to understand this protest and why they ended up being called the gen z protests so that's number one number two kenya has always had a history very robust history of protests we are

Seeing you know we have always had this reputation internationally not regionally necessarily but internationally as kenya you know the famous kenyan hospitality so we are seen to be very people very unique people maybe our immediate neighbors would not agree with that because you know we deal with people differently but our view moves are again you know how

We bring that we bring out the best for visitors phenomenon has always had a scene as this meek people that are friendly that smile and we grin and great in that sense but we've always had a history of protests the early 1900s when there was a protest at masino school this i think was in 1908 or 1911 so we've always a history of protests i mean we can come

All the way down to the maumao protests the push for independence and land rights etc but we've always had that history we've always had the if you come to the recent history in the 1990s we had the young tax and the protests the single party state and then we went into multi-party democracy etc we have always had that so for 2024 basing on that history and

Then basing on what was happening at that time because the finance bill 2024 was like any other finance bill the finance bill 2023 i believe was worse than 2024 finance bill because that's the bill that introduced the housing levy it was the bill that introduced the nssf i think the enhanced one that you know the pinch has already been felt at the beginning

Of this year so the 2023 finance bill was worse and i think people did not realize that we've always had these finance bills we always pass them and they always mean something until the 2023 finance bill effects the pinching people and you have these young people who are watching their parents struggling, they are watching their elderly grandparents and

Parents that cannot access health anymore because the health fund, the NHIF, was changed and then they brought in Shah, Shiv Shah, which was completely messed up.

That 2023 finance bill I think is what started the move towards people very disenfranchised. The current government that was passing that bill had come in with a lot of narratives around how they were going to, you know, a bottoms-up kind of economy where they would consider people at the bottom of the pyramid.

But after 2023 finance bill coming into 2024 and looking at the 2024 finance bill, which people now took very seriously, it was even being interpreted and translated into different vernacular languages and people are debating it on the social media, on radio, etc. So people became very aware and the anger was that this government that had come into power

Promising reprieve and concessions the so-called hustler, that promise was not only ravaged in 2023 or that finance bill that brought in the housing levy and all these other levies, it was now being cemented in the 2024 finance bill, which was promising, you know, a lot of taxes, heavy taxation, hidden in a lot of legalese, etc. So people became very angry

With that.

And Gen Z specifically because they could see that they were now entering into this space. And I talk about transitions a lot, entering, transitioning into this space where they were now going to take care of elderly parents, elderly grandparents, older siblings who cannot make it in this economy.

You know, they're losing jobs, they're being highly taxed, and even them waiting for this government to create spaces for them. And I remember in 2023, at the end of 2023, in a graduation ceremony, I think it was at the Kenyatta University or at JQAT here in Nairobi, the then Deputy President graduates, just be aware that there are no jobs.

There are no jobs out here.

You guys, when you come out here, you know, you just have to just take care, you know, sort yourselves out.

So with all these different things happening directly towards young people and being directed to young people and being told there are no jobs and they can see, you know, the depressed economy, depressed parents, And there was shakahola at that time, you know, we are removing children from graves. these things are happening and they could see that there was

No proactivity from this government that had promised them all these things.

So I believe that's where the anger came from. you also have to historicize it and say that we've always had a history of protests where if we feel unhappy with something, we will tend to keep quiet.

But when it becomes too much, you know, that anger then explodes into what we saw in 2024. Doc. So there has been a lot of historical anger towards the ruling class, towards just how poorly our governments tend to be run. one thing I do want to emphasize is some of these terms might be familiar to a Kenyan audience, such as shakahola and the finance bill.

I just want to give a brief description of each so that our international friends don't feel left out. So shakahola was one of the most devastating events in Kenyan history because we saw a cult that had forced hundreds of people to stop eating, to live in dilapidated conditions. And were basically killing people en masse.

The government was pulling bodies out of mass graves, basically. And it was just a horrible, horrible sight. And, you know, a lot of Kenyans were angry that this could be allowed to happen under the government's news because Kenya does have a lot of protection when it comes to freedom of religion.

But people were questioning whether that freedom was being taken advantage of because such a large casualty numbers were unthinkable. fact that, you know, it was religion being used to drive these casualties, it was honestly one of the worst tragedies Kenya has seen.

And the finance bill, just for context, it's a document that guides how revenues will be raised specifically through taxes and what new measures or legal changes are coming. It's a document that passes every year, as the doctor has said, but generally speaking, most Kenyans were not aware of it.

Most Kenyans were simply aware of the budget because there's so much pomp and circumstance when the budget is read every single year that, you know, that's what we associate with the idea of how government spends its money.

So that's what most people had focused on and then the 2023 finance bill being a really, really punitive document for the Kenyan people that awakened a level of consciousness and then the 2024 protests happened.

And speaking of those 2024 protests, Doc, one thing you've talked about. is how in 2023, the years before, there had been protests specifically focused on femicide and your protests that had de-centered politicians. biggest challenges for the youth after the 2024 protest was how quickly President Trudeau's government managed to co-opt the opposition.

Because as you've said, a lot of protests were centered around political figures, specifically those in the opposition, and specifically the late Raila Molo-Denga. kind of impact did that have on the protest movement, on their viability, the political scene in the country?

I personally take a very long view on consequences and effects and after effects on things.

So the first thing that I think I want our listeners to understand is that in the Kenyan system, post the 2010 constitution, how it was, yeah, this was 2010, there really is no opposition in the country. because we go in, we elect a president and a deputy president, and they come in, and then we elect, you know, because we decentralized our governance

System. now, in the past, we only had a president, and then he would come in, or they would come in and elect their vice president and the cabinet ministers, etc. So now we elect a president, together on a ticket, together with their deputy.

So we elect two individuals into these offices. then following that, we also elect, you know, we decentralized government. are electing governors, we are electing senators, we are electing members of parliament, and then we are electing members of our county assemblies. So because of that, there really is no official opposition in the country.

What happens is that even within government, you can find people that are pro-certain policies and anti-certain policies, anti- or pro-different directions.

So when, after the 2024 protests, because for our listeners, just to give them context, after the 2024 protests, during the protests themselves, we saw a lot of what I am personally, I'm sure many people will agree with me, was one-ton and unprecedented violence meted out on protesters who were peaceful.

They were just carrying their phones, bottles of water, and the Kenyan flag. what we saw were, in the immediate aftermath, there was, you know, we had our protesters being shot in the streets of Nairobi and just being killed in broad daylight and you know now this is the era of social media.

There were all these videos and photographs circulating in real time on social media, showing dead people, bodies riddled with bullets, blood in the streets.

It was really, you know, particularly violent and, you know, it was a severe shock to the system. Aside from that, in the immediate aftermath, because what happened is that protesters, you know, went and stormed Parliament after rightfully saying that this is the people's house. We have selected representatives.

They are currently sitting in Parliament.

And to give context, as on June 25th, 2024, the protests, you know, went a notch higher because as protesters were in the streets, you know, chanting and marching and asking their representatives who were in Parliament at that time, not to pass that finance bill, the representatives had ignored the pleas of the people and were seated at that particular time

In Parliament, passing the finance bill.

And so there was a lot of annoyance because you, we have elected you to represent us and you're currently as we're standing outside here.

You are in there, you are doing the thing we've told you not to do because you need to listen to us. We, you represent us. And so the protesters, you know, you know, there was this surge and, you know, they stormed Parliament.

Of course, later there were many debates about how it's a protected space and people were not supposed to enter in there. But then we started seeing some of the people who had been protesting, people who had been vocal, disappearing.

You know, there were abductions and majority who were abducted were eventually found killed, murdered and dumped somewhere, you know, in quarries in different other spaces.

So in the aftermath of that, because now the country had reached a place where things were very unstable, there were, you know, there were calls to go and storm state house and, you know, calls for the army to take over. The country was in flux.

And looking back, I understand the need that now the leader Elamon Odinga came up and said, being the person that he had been with a lot of clout, a lot of love from the people, in after being told to step aside by young people, stepping in to say, sit down and this bloodshed?

Because, you know, there was a lot of bloodshed. It there was chaos in the country. Unfortunately, those talks ended in the formation of what we now call the broad based government where people from Raila's side of the divide, the unofficial opposition were co-opted into government.

Was that a bad thing? No. I actually think that was a positive thing because it is at that point that people now started the movements to dissenter politicians, where people had the understanding that politicians will always move with their own interests. And therefore, you saw a lot of uprising in terms of very organic, people-led movements.

There are people holding Twitter spaces, for example, having these different discussions and strategizing and saying politicians will always move with their own interests. How do we then make sure we are representing our own interests as a people? So I feel, if I take a long view of the protest, I don't think there were a failure.

I actually think that they, you know, I always say that the nation is, you know, our African nations, and scholars like Mbembe have spoken about this, how when the nation is first born, it's born as a mimicry and we start to morph into something else.

So when I take a long view of the Kenyan nation, I feel that we growing growing. 2024 perhaps country entering metaphorical entering metaphorical adulthood, process between adulthood. nation. We're going to take a long view of the Kenyan nation.

We're going to take a long view of the Kenyan nation. So I personally think it was, it was a good thing for that to happen because it allowed us to see one, we have people power. However, you want to define that whether you think it's small power or big power, we do have that.

It's possible for people to call for things and for things to be done. And it's also one of the best things that happened as a result of the 2024 protests They've always held themselves in that, at that level. And now it was very easy to call them out.

We call them out on social media, even when the blockers We call them out, we call them out on social media, we call them out on social media, we call them out on social media, we call them out on social media, call them out on social media, we call them out on social media, we call them out on social media, we call them out on social media, we call them out

On social media, we call them out on social media, we call them out on social media, we call them out on social media, we call them out on social media, we call them out on social media, we call them out on social media, we call them out on social media, we call them out on social media, we call them out on social media, call them out on social media, we

Call them out on social media, we call them out on social media, we call them out on social media, we call them out on social media, we call them on social media, we call them out on social media, we call them out on social media, we call them on social media, necessarily a failure but there is a feeling and I'd us to address it in this podcast there is a

Feeling among some observers that beyond cosmetic changes in the government you know a few reshuffles here and there and a lot of the politicians who were removed from the cabinet who eventually returned that's why I'm calling them cosmetic adjustments and the government withdrawing the finance bill and for our audience I want you to understand just how

Absurd the scenes were in Kenya at the time all the politicians who supported the government's position that the finance bill was a necessity that all these punitive taxes were absolutely necessary to fund the government and you know keep it from collapsing they were also proudly saying yes and then when the president decided that no I'm going to withdraw

The finance bill and appease the masses all of them did a U-turn basically and said you know what we didn't even support this finance bill in the first place so it was such an absurd scene and honestly it was very disconcerting for the people because a few months later one of the top officials in parliament on president ruto's side kemani chungwa he said

That the government passed the finance bill in bits and pieces and overall you know the effect was still the same so that has led to a feeling that these protests were not as effective as they could have been and there's been a sense of a loss of momentum because of you know that feeling that even if you know people go out to protest even if your people put

Their lives on the line even if you there's numbers and people can't reach parliament regardless of it being a protected area there's still a feeling that as you rightfully said politicians will put their own interest first and because they have state machinery on their side nothing meaningful will really happen so doc how do you square that you know and the

Weakening of the momentum you know in public's in public protest is there a link is it because people think that no matter what they do the politicians will still you know get their way right i always say this and i always get in trouble when i say this but i start by this because history shows us that you know when you're talking about politics because this

Is politics i always tell people to think of politics as a tree and not you know a plant and i'll i'll i'll explain that when you think about momentum there's always this that momentum has to be, you know, like a maize plant. put the seed in the ground today.

And within a couple of weeks, I see something sprouting and two, three months, I'll be harvesting the first cobs of maize. We know that politics are like that.

But for me, politics has always been like watching an oak tree grow. Some people who put the plant in the ground will not be alive to see it sprout its first branches. It doesn't mean that the tree is not growing.

It doesn't mean they did, it was useless. And it doesn't mean that their efforts were wasted. We have to learn the art of seeing politics, not as an instant drink, but as something that takes time, something that grows and sometimes, you know, grows like a child.

A child will have growth spots and you go away for a couple of weeks and then come back and find that a little bit taller. And then you stay with them for two years and you'd feel like they're not growing all. growth is taking place. Changes are taking place. these changes will not be immediately visible. be visible after time.

So, for example, in 2024, after the unofficial opposition politicians were co-opted into government and majority of them are from the very powerful, then very powerful Orange Democratic Movement Party, the ODM Party. That was in 2024, and I think people felt it's useless.

This is now one big party, which is ODM, which by then was part of the Azi Mio Coalition of Opposition Parties. has now, you know, ODM, which was the largest of the Azi Mio Coalition, moving and joining the then UDA, the United Democratic Alliance Party that was in power.

And I think people felt, you know, this is useless. have done nothing. in 2026, just two years down the line. we can already see that ODM is currently on, I would confidently say, on its final legs as a party that was a national party.

Because what has happened is that, with the things that have happened between then and now, including the ousting of their then Secretary General, the Senator for Nairobi County, Edwin Sifuna, when they ousted him because he did not agree with some of the party positions, especially joining the government, that transition into joining the government and, you

Know, the discourse that happened afterward. course, there was conflict within the party and they managed to oust him.

And of course, this all happened with the passing of all these things are part of the tree growing so now odm is a very weak party uda itself which was almost invincible if uda stormed your background you knew if you don't join them you're done now politicians that aligned to uda from certain areas of the country are beginning to you know to think twice and

Ask themselves you know what's going on here as a result of the protests there was a falling out between the president and his then deputy president who was then impeached and now we later find out that what we suspected was true that many legislatures were paid money to impeach him this is something that has been admitted openly by politicians on various

Platforms you know so all these things all this is politics and i feel 2024 as i said was the nation shedding off like a snake you wish we shed off one piece of skin and are regrowing that process will continue as the nation grows but it was not it was not useless i feel there are some things that happened then that will only make sense in 2026 and will make

Sense in 2030 and will make sense in 2040 although in 2024 people felt this was useless we died in vain even those deaths are not in vain because right now there is a concerted call to make this president a one-term president and one of the things we are bringing in the forefront is the deaths the very unnecessary and violent deaths protesters from 2024 and

I'm not saying that we need to build nations on the blood of our young although that has always been the unfortunate norm that we have built not just on the continent but while that we build our nations on blood that has been shed quite unjustly but these are the things that we must develop a long view of that this is a tree and not a bean plant or a maize

Plant it's not always instantaneous it takes time but we get there nations of blood is very important to me because kenya is fundamentally a nation that has been built on blood on the blood of you know multiple generations of protesters with the ones that protested against the british government the mau and multiple other peaceful protesters who whose lives

You know were lost in search for kenya's independence the protesters who protested i protested against jomo kenyatta our first president his rule became in Increasingly authoritarian, multiple assassinations. course, his successor, Daniel Toroy, teacher of Moi, was worse in so many, so many aspects, so many different aspects that honestly, I feel like that

Deserves its own podcast.

Kibaki, despite how much people have lionized him since his death, since the end of his presidential term, there was still a lot of bloodshed. And of course, President Uhuru Kenyatta and President Ruto have their own skeletons in the closet.

So there's been a lot of bloodshed throughout the country's history. more recently, there's been multiple instances of abductions, of protesters being killed.

And I had Moabili on this podcast a couple of weeks ago discussing his experience because of being abducted, his experience of being affected by government overreach. that scare people off from going to the streets?

Because you're a parent, you have kids, and you know, you can imagine if your kids wanted to go out there to protest against the excesses of the government, you'd want to keep them safe. Because I am not a parent, but I do have a younger sister who's in that age group that, you went out to protest.

I was right there beside her because I was genuinely scared for her life. I have such a deep distrust that the government will protect the basic right of people to protest without going into excesses of violence. But I felt I had to be there with her, yes, as a protester, but also as a concerned elder sibling.

So how does the government, you know, ability to inflict violence, and you know, this is not even mentioning the goons because dear listeners, if you're not in Kenya, you might not be familiar with this, but our government has become very adept at using goons to inflict political violence on people it disagrees with.

So, Doc, do you think this absurge of political violence, one, ruins people's, young people's in particular, their faith in, you know, in peaceful democratic participation? And two, do you think it diminishes their ability to participate in that space?

That's, that's, that's a very, I think, loaded question, because one of the things that, my view, that allows the state to unleash this kind of violence, and I also want us to, you know, in Kenya, we call these people that are armed by politicians as goons, but really what they are is they're paid militia, you know, they are, I would almost call them

Terrorist small terror cells that are paid and armed by politicians and protected even by the police because you don't see any you know after you've got a period where people have come out they have like for example just about a month or so ago we had these armed militia you know they came in they went to the all saints cathedral which ideally we shouldn't

Really be desecrating church spaces and that's a different podcast but you know we had them on camera we saw them they went in they went and unleashed terror they beat people up they cost harm they broke a few legs and you know stole things on cctv and nothing was done so from that perspective i one because we are you know we are trying to center the youth

In this number one of the things is that because of our colonial history and the way we have fashioned the current state from that colonial model that was inherently very violent inherently saw the african as these quote-unquote native who is not educated is doesn't have value when you think about it in capitalistic terms of a very low value is if any we

Have really tended to cheapen the lives of our people and so people then become tools they become tools on the path to accessing power accessing wealth and it's not just in kenya we had we've had we've had of cases for example in place like on amazon in amazon warehouses where we hear that because it's a huge warehouse and the bathrooms are not inside the

Warehouse and it's impossible for someone to leave their workstation and go to the bathroom and come back because you will be off your quarter of work people are using bins in the warehouse as toilets so that you don't you know there's no time for you to go to the toilet so that's number one and that is something that we will have to have a national

Conversation and action about especially now that we are in this process of going into the 2027 presidential elections in Kenya in Kenya that's number one number two does the violence prevent people from participating actively yes it does because this violence one is not constitutional the constitution explicitly gives Kenyans the right to picket, the right

To protest without even asking for permission.

The Constitution asks us to inform the police that we of this and this place are going to have a match tomorrow because we want to express our sentiments about ABCD full stop. just inform them, but because of state capture, machinery and laws being drafted and bills being discussed in Parliament, that right is slowly being curtailed.

And yes, I was personally in the 2024 June protests and I was marching alongside people who are my age, I'm in my 40s now, and people who are younger, much younger.

And I remember when we reached Ngara, which is not from the CBD, you know, the Nairobi Central Business District, somebody opened their phone and we saw photographs of dead people in the streets of Nairobi, people who had been shot just outside Parliament.

And I remember all of us, because there was no traffic on the roads that day, all of us sat down because, you know, because the strength just left our bodies immediately because we knew we were marching to express our displeasure against the finance bill. We were not armed.

We were not being violent. We were just walking and talking and singing, you know, just because it was a long distance.

Of course, we were tear-gassed somewhere on the paths, etc. But the moment we reached and shared those photographs and we now all opened our phones, the strength left all our legs and many people turned back at Ngara before entering the CBD and went back home because we knew then we were marching to our deaths.

And we kept asking ourselves, not, is it worth it? Is it worth our parents coming to collect? I kept asking myself, is it worth my children coming to collect my bullet-riddled body Because that's what we were saying.

So the violence one is, of course, it's illegal, it's immoral. It's not constitutional. But it's illegal, it's illegal, it's illegal, it's illegal.

It's illegal, it's illegal. It's illegal. It's illegal.

It's illegal. It's illegal. It's illegal.

It's illegal. It's illegal. It's illegal.

It's illegal. It's illegal. It's illegal.

It's illegal. It's illegal. It's illegal.

It's illegal. It's illegal. It's illegal.

It's illegal. It's illegal. It's illegal.

It's illegal. It's illegal. It's illegal.

It's illegal. It's illegal. It's illegal.

It's illegal. It's illegal. It's illegal.

It's illegal. It's illegal. It's illegal.

It's illegal. It's illegal. that's a conversation we need to have.

Because have a candidate that is running on the promise of following the constitution but we know that the instruments of power are such that if he decides he doesn't want to follow some certain tenets he will not and there's nothing we the people can do about it in that moment for me that is the latter conversation but yes the violence does do that even for

This year's the 2026 finance bill many mothers were saying we don't want to bury you guys we don't have the bandwidth to stomach any more bloodshed in the streets you people being shot being abducted and being tortured we don't have the stomach for it let us wait for the next voting cycle which is one year down the line so that's where we are at as a country

Thanks doc i brought that question up specifically because as you've rightfully said the holder of the office of the president has a lot of power and can choose whether to disregard or follow the tenets of the constitution because our constitution is a very progressive document it's very it protects people's rights but as you've said the violence inherent

Within the system because yes we have very capitalistic system that only views people as numbers as your figures instead of individuals with inherent value that system has allowed a police state that is very violent most of our interactions with the police are just inherently violent most of our interactions with the security forces so i'm bringing this up

Because of a statement that president ruto made a few days ago about two days ago actually yes so he said that we were lenient to protesters and they have now graduated to goons and a lot of people saw that as him attempting to manufacture consent for you the abduction of peaceful protesters and the suppression of lawful assembly and the suppression of

Lawful assembly and then you know the police are empowered to go after the protesters even much harder than they have in the past and you know it's not like the police was treating people with kid gloves we've seen we saw a police officer shorter shooter guy at point blank range who was just selling masks so it's a very important conversation that feel like

We should have especially as we're heading you know to the election season so you like to comment on that just you the idea that the president is trying to manufacture consent for increased police brutality so i when i when i had that because i had that statement when i had that statement i was very alarmed because of two things one The president is

Conflating peaceful protesters who had a legitimate, you know, they had legitimate concern.

We, I was one of them, we had legitimate concerns about how the country being run. legitimate concerns about how this president ran, I still have the UDA manifesto and I it from time to time. If you look at that manifesto and what the reality has been, it's like night and day. things that he said he was going to do, he has not done. legitimate concerns.

So for me, number one was the concern that he was conflating protesters and paid militia.

That's number one. Number two, he was using obfuscation in the sense that this president knows, he knows that in this country where about 75 of the population of this country is under the age of 30.

Under the age of 30, majority of these young people, 18, actually from 15, because now we are getting young people, people as young as 15 leaving school and entering the world of work, quite unfortunately. about 80% of that population do not have jobs.

Majority, about 80% of those young people, if you look at a MasterCard Foundation jobs evaluation report 2026, a large percentage of young people without jobs are actually educated with, at the very least, a post-secondary qualification. So a certificate, a diploma, a degree, a master's degree.

And so when he, and he knows that politicians, and not just his politicians, this has been the norm with many politicians, because they've been unable to adequately tackle, and there are ways to do that, to tackle the unemployment, underemployment, low employment of our young people.

And so, instead of addressing these issues, what politicians are doing is, they are not co-opting these young people into their personal gangs. this is happening, and I'm sure he watched young man who was graduating from the Jomukenata University of Science and Technology, saying that he is graduating, he's got this degree and if he doesn't get a job, he's

Going to become a goon for a politician.

Because at least he will be getting some pay, because his family is waiting for him, now that he has graduated, he must start providing for his younger siblings and for the family, because he's now a man, you know, with a degree.

He is ignoring the realities that politicians, such as himself and many others, have been co-opting these young people into jobs as goons. have seen the videos, we have seen the statistics. conjecture, this is fact. so when a president is conflating these issues and flattening them and saying we were lenient on protesters and now they've turned into goons,

For me, that's a very alarmist statement to make because one, you're not addressing unemployment in the country and you know that the wealthy, the elites, the politicians are co-opting young people into their personal guns, especially now as we head into the highly politically charged 2027, almost every MCA, every MP, governor and senator and aspirants, you

Know, political aspirants, are hiring young people as quote unquote, political mobilizers, but you know what that term means on the ground.

Number two, protesters are people who have legitimate concerns, you cannot just lump them with goons. And number three, what you have just said that when you say protesters are goons, then it means there's no space for protesters, even when they have legitimate concerns and they're expressing something that is legitimate and protected in the constitution.

For me, for me, for me, for me, these very alarming statements and of the things that I've enjoyed watching in the last couple of weeks is whenever now we have political aspirants, know, going into, into, into specific places, especially when have a large following.

Like, for example, the senator Sifuna, that just this previous weekend was having a tour of Western Kenya. And I remember the young people in those areas saying, we are not going to be goons for hire, we are not going to be mobilized by anybody, we are not going to take your money to cause violence.

And if we see any of politicians, and if we see any of politicians who don't like what we are doing, which is legitimate, sending in their, their, their, their, their, their goons here, we will deal with them. have seen, you know, a lot of cities and justice. did see this in Olkalao, where there was an attempt cause violence and to thwart, you know, the

Voting process Olkalao, where the UDA candidate was soundly defeated by a candidate from another party that has emerged in central Kenya as the party to watch, which is the DCP party by the impeached former deputy president Shigatika Shagwa. how we had, you know, what I'm calling citizen led justice. found these young people who were causing violence.

They stopped them. They put them somewhere. They removed their clothes and they just let them see. there in full view of the public without their clothes on.

And of course, this gun could not do anything because they had to sit down and conceal their more private areas, et cetera. So this is what we are seeing. We are seeing ways in which to thwart this.

But overall, when the president says this, it should be because what he's doing is actually monitoring consent by lumping different groups in the society that have different grievances into one lump of gun and therefore making it OK, quote unquote, to shoot them, kill them. Because he had even give a shoot the leg order during the 2024 protests.

So do see this.

And it really should give us pause. And need to find ways of working around that going into 2027. Doc, it's perfect that you bring up Okalao because I want you to circle back to a point that you had made earlier about growth in the political space.

So the fact that our Kenyan youth are actively saying we will not be used as guns by these politicians is, It's that idea that no matter how dire the situation is, are not going to jeopardize our communities for a few shillings, which is something has happened multiple times.

Now, in Okalao, we saw a very concerted effort by the government to do everything within their power to basically bribe voters. You and I have had conversations about this on Twitter, just laughing at the lengths that the Independent Electoral Boundaries Commission, would to defend what the government was doing and to avoid charging them.

You know, we saw one commissioner saying that it's not voter bribery, it's voter treatment. But we saw, you know, the Okalao residents vote for the opposition candidate by such a wide margin, regardless of, you know, the goodies that they had been given by the government.

So we're talking about things like gas cylinders, mattresses, money, a lot of money changed hands in Okalao.

So what do you think of that? Do you see it as a trend that can be replicated in the rest of the country where, you know, despite the government's best efforts to bribe voters or intimidate voters?

Because, as you rightly said, there are a lot of goons in Okalao, do you see it as, you know, something that can be replicated will stand up and say this is not what we want no matter how much you try to bribe us or intimidate us we're going to vote for the opposition I actually think that while Olkalau was a seminal moment remember I've also said that what

Happened in 2024 we may begin to see it now actually strongly believe that what happened in Olkalau is as a result of what happened in 2024 and the aftermath where we are now seeing citizens telling you know political elites that we see you we know your tricks and we know you imagine that we as the electoral as the voters the electorate are very silly are

Foolish but we will show you that we have more wisdom than you might imagine for example one of the pollsters I think it's Tifa went out to Olkalau and did a poll that showed the UDA candidate who is of course part of the ruling coalition of the current president was actually correct because the people of Olkalau had agreed with them within themselves and of

Course with the you know the leaders that they actually wanted to elect had agreed that they would even tell the pollsters that they would vote for the for the candidate that was bringing them money we saw roads being fixed we saw electricity poles being erected people are being given shoes years after independence some of those roads have been to nyandarwa

Because i said i climb mountains a lot and some of these mountains especially in the abadayas you access them through nyandarwa and the roads have been in really bad shape you know they had started to fix the roads but the roads as you go into the interior spaces are still pretty bad but we've had a chance to fix them some of them some of them were being

Fixed during that Olkalau vote and so they told Tifa yes we will vote for the candidate that you know who eventually lost and of course Tifa comes out and says that you know the people have said this candidate they will vote for this candidate it is true the people had said that they would vote for that candidate and so we're even now even now seeing a

Situation where on the ground people will even tell posters what they imagine posters want to hear they imagine the central government wants to hear we have reached that place think the more important thing is that after witnessing what happened in Olkalau emboldened that oh this is actually possible you know we can actually do this And this previous

Weekend, when Edwin Sifuna was actually going into the rally in Western Kenya, we did see people actually giving him money, they were giving him money very openly, and this is unprecedented because it is politicians who usually give electorate money.

They come in with, understand in Olkalao over 1 billion Kenyan shillings was used just to bribe voters, not even to fix the roads, and it was money that was liquid money to bribe people, changed hands. Over 1 billion Kenyan shillings was absorbed into the pockets of the people in Olkalao as bribes. And of course we know what happened there.

Now we see, we've even seen politicians in Western Kenya giving people money, and then people take the money, they ask for the pay bills and till numbers, which are the mobile way of transferring money, to give to the politicians they want to support. So it is unprecedented.

I love what happened in Olkalao that people openly took the bribes and welcomed the bribery, but they went and voted for the person they wanted.

And now we can see this happening across the country.

And like I said, 2024 was the point which the invincibility of our politicians and the political state was And now we're beginning to see the weak underbelly of our politicians and their you know, the tactics they use, come in, bribe the voters, and then you tell them to vote for you and they vote for you.

That playbook is now being, has And now we're here to see what other playbook they will unleash if there's even enough time to come up But yes, I think that was a turning point.

But it was not a turning point by itself. I think we have always, we were always going to come to this place and here we are. And here we are, as of this moment, as you've rightfully said, this is a culmination of so many different things and you're just rising political consciousness.

I keep going back to the metaphor you used of a tree. It feels like, you know, the tree of Kenya's political consciousness is about to bloom. And the place for you to do that is the upcoming 2027 general elections.

The Independent Electoral Boundaries Commission, the IBC, registered more than 2.6 million new voters during, you know, the enhanced registration phase in 2026. So do you see, you know, these new voters, a lot of them being people who have never voted before.

I saw lines upon lines upon lines all throughout Nairobi of young people who are ready and just really angry.

They want to vote. They want to exercise their democratic rights. Do you see them making a difference towards the upcoming elections?

And this might be a bit of a loaded question. Do you think young people need to form their own political movement? Because the issue with Kenyan politics, for anyone who might not be familiar, is that it's very heavily a numbers game.

And that has traditionally meant tribal coalitions where tribal kingpins can guarantee a certain number of votes. And that's how a president is chosen, if he has the strongest possible coalition with the most number of voters from certain regions.

So, Doc, do you think that in light of that knowledge, in light of the fact that our politics are very heavily tribal, the young people who have now amassed at least 2.6 million votes, see a situation in which they're forced to ally with the old political forces in order to overcome this as a barrier?

Because getting as 50% plus one of the vote and, you know, a majority of the vote in about 24 of the 47 counties in the country, that is a very tall order. So what do you think in that instance? So that's a very good question.

Now, in the abstract, in the abstract, do young people need to form their own coalition? I feel that for us to answer that question, we need to sort of pull back and ask ourselves some certain questions. If you look at the current, our current parliament and Senate, etc., is not just filled with the timers.

Because when we talk about Kenyan politics, there is a tendency to imagine that when young people say, we are marginalized, we've been left behind, it's very easy to imagine there are no young people who have been voted in as senators, as MPs, as MCAs. Certainly not at presidential level. haven't reached there yet. We are hoping to reach there soon.

But even when you look at the young voters, you know, the young leaders that we have today, majority of them have been a huge disappointment. For example, if you look at somebody like the so-called Toto, who came, I think from, I don't know if it's Charangani or one of those places in the South Rift, has been a total disappointment.

If you look people like Peter Salassia, for example, you look at Jalango, for example, who is the member of parliament for Kibra, if you look at all these, no, I don't think it's Kibra, I think it's Langata.

If you look at all these young, young politicians, they've been quite the disappointment. They go in the of them do not really have any political knowledge. So even articulating political issues on behalf of the people they represent on the floor of Senate or on the floor of parliament is a problem.

And of course, the political mentorship in our country is broken, just like mentorship across all other sectors. So nobody is really coaching young people to say this is how we do politics. These are the procedures.

This is what we need to do. This is the language you need to learn when you are thinking about reading bills and interpreting bills and contributing on the floors of either Senate or parliament. Or even as an MCA, nobody is giving that level of education to young aspirants.

So what young aspirants are coming in to emulate the system that exists, which is very ethnic based. you have to come in with ethnic numbers, you have to get the blessing of the elders from your ethnic group.

If you're a woman vying, you have to especially get blessings from the elders or you will delegitimized as a leader or a potential leader, all these different barriers. is what young people finding and have navigate. many ways don't really blame them because that the system they're coopted in. and that's the game they have to play.

What I can say is that we need a critical mass of young people in political office. need more young people in parliament, more young people in Senate, we need more young people as NCAs.

But we cannot do that. We cannot do that. We cannot do that.

We cannot do that. We cannot do that. We cannot do that.

We cannot do that. We cannot do that. We cannot do that.

We cannot do that. We cannot do that. We cannot do that.

We cannot do that. We cannot do that. We cannot do that.

We cannot do that. We cannot do that. We cannot do that.

We cannot do that. We cannot do that. We cannot that.

We cannot do that. We cannot do that. We cannot do that.

We cannot do that. We cannot do that. We cannot do that.

We cannot do that. We cannot do that. We cannot do that.

We cannot do that. We cannot do that. We cannot do that.

We cannot do that. We cannot do that. We cannot do that.

We do that. We cannot do that. We cannot do that.

We cannot that. We cannot do that. We cannot do that.

We cannot do that. We cannot do that. We cannot do And our transition spaces are broken.

That means that the wisdom, the knowledge that our elders have or even had keeps getting lost. So we are always reinventing ourselves. We are always beginning from scratch, which is very unfortunate because every time we reach the same place our elders reached, we are now old and the young people start the cycle all over all over again.

I'll give you an example. Our grandparents, for those us who have them or who have passed in the recent past, went away with a lot of knowledge, a lot of history, a lot of dates, a lot of things they experienced.

Some of them were alive during the emergency period. opportunity to record, to learn the things they knew and put them down, it means we have a generation of people who lived in the pre-independence Kenya that are not with us anymore.

We have no idea what the realities were. We will be left with books that were written by colonialists, basically, or people who have misinterpreted, disinterpreted the events of history. And that is the danger we see it in now, if we say only young people must rule, because what are they ruling?

What are the rules of engagement? What are the skills they to, by the they acquire these skills, they'll be old and then we'll be bringing in the current gen betters who are being born now, who will be the first in relation to see the 22nd century. What will they be leading?

What will they be doing at that time? So we, what we need to do is have more young people, because majority of our population people under 35 anyway. We need more young people, but we also need our older cohorts of leaders to begin to take seriously the business of mentorship and grooming the next generation of young people.

In that conversation, in that process of grooming the next generation of young people, a lot of misconceptions, ethnic, you know, underpinnings will be challenged, because now you have young men from different places in the country saying they are willing to vote outside of, of the ethnic, the ethnic identity, not that they have lost it.

In fact, I find that young people, especially in the young age group and younger millennials embracing their ethnicity, more and more and learning their languages, etc, which is a good thing.

So it's not that they are abandoning their ethnic identities, but they're not allowing ethnicity to be the key mobilizing strategy through which they access power, wealth and other resources.

So are we likely to see young people go and vote? I'm hoping yes, because in the last election, young people did not vote. As I was saying, will it, will we more young people going to vote?

I hope so. In the last election, young people were accused of not going to vote, which was true. And it is a person's right to vote or not vote.

But I think in the last three, four years, people have seen the results of allowing themselves to be absent at the ballot, especially in Olkalau, where we saw Mainakiai's contribution to electoral law come alive, where we vote right here, you count the votes in our presence right here, and we televise those votes and then When everybody leaves that place, we

Are all sure that no votes have been stolen, you know, because that has been, you know, has been the thing that was done in the past.

You would either stuff the ballot boxes with your candidate of choice if you were to rig that election. are a lot of things that were being done. now we are seeing more and more that when people are more involved at the point of the vote, you know, you tend not to see the immediate results of the choice.

But beyond voting, I am also hoping to see more young people continue to, not just about voting, it's about holding your leaders to account.

When they introduce these bills in parliament, we are there, we are reading these bills now, are debating, we are putting more demands on our leaders and placing their feet to the fire. While that process is not yet fully defined and fully visible, I think we are getting there.

So, overall, I think these 2.6 million new votes will be critical, I think, in 2027, because if majority, as you say, of these are young people, I think we are going to see a very different result, because young people are speaking a different language that many politicians, many people in power don't seem to understand.

Yeah, so I think that's where we are heading, we will see, we will see. think everything is still in flux, 2027 is still a distance away, but we can speculate and say that these 2.6 million new voters will be a determining factor. All right, and with that, we'll end the podcast here. We've gone a little over the hour that I usually allot for this podcast.

And, Doc, thank you so much for being gracious enough to stay with us much longer than the hour we had agreed upon for the podcast. really, really appreciate you.

So, Doc, is there anything you'd like to share with our audience before leave, maybe about the Navajo Leadership Institute or the Under the Acacia podcast, or just anything about that you want to share? I won't limit you. we have recently started the, I recently founded the Navajo Leadership Institute.

And, so what we do is that we sit within what I call the ecologies of becoming. said right now that young people form the majority of the population, not just in Kenya, but across the continent. Everybody keeps saying we are the youngest, we are the youngest continent, and that's true.

By 2030, 75% of Africans will be 35 and below. that's a huge, that's a huge number.

But unfortunately, because we have delegitimized a lot of things or defunded things like educations and our social systems, we have dismantled these, we now have a cohort of people across the continent, and here in Kenya as well, of course, that is completely, completely left alone, and are becoming something that even they are not aware of.

If you look at a country like Kenya, I was with young people at Indaba X last week, and I kept asking them. And I keep asking this question to young people everywhere.

If you were to count 10 people, 10 men on hand and 10 women on the other hand, that have a national platform that you look up to, majority of young people burst into laughter. Because they themselves admit that they cannot go, you know, and I tell them apart from their parents, they say, even if we counted our parents, probably wouldn't reach five.

For me, that is a failure of the older generation.

And I count myself as being in that older generation, because we have been modeling corruption. In you know, we are generally, we've become very corrupt as an older generation, we love shortcuts.

We have taken nepotism into, into, into, into every conversation that's in every practice, whether it's government, wherever bribery is the order of the day, if want to get anything done anywhere, you've got to bribe your way in, into it.

We're, and we are teaching these things to our children.

Because if you listen to various podcasts, you hear young people who used to be in very good schools, coming in and saying, oh, yes, it was norm for us to cheat in exams, the teachers would bring us, you know, the exams before, before the exam date, and we would look at all the questions, we knew what was coming. And that's how we passed.

So we are bringing a generation of young people, these ones who going to be the majority 75%, from the world of being children into the world of adulthood. But by the time they reach there, we've, we have already clipped their wings.

And so majority of them are coming, are becoming these, to use it very loosely, this thing that we have crippled, this wingless bird, which is very unfortunate, I think, because if you think about the continent 10 years from now, and these are the majority of people, and we have not imparted the skills, the, we've not modeled the values, the integrity, that

They will require to live and to be in the world that is here and the world to come, then it means we will have the entire continent.

And from where I sit, when I'm having my conspiracy theory moments, I think we will be right a recolonization that will be intellectual. have these big corporations and businesses and we cannot run them, young people cannot run them, people from elsewhere will come and run them on our behalf because you don't the skills and you don't have the knowledge, et

Cetera.

For me, that is the biggest, my biggest concern. And so for Naboisha Leadership Institute, we sit at the intersection of ecosystem, of program and of media.

Those are our three main arms that we do, where we sit a space where we are actually, we are developing something the Youth Transitions Intelligence, which is a framework for understanding the things young people are saying and they're doing, but the older people who are in charge of, you know, the employers, governments, et cetera, do not seem to

Understand.

A key example I would give you was the recent speech of school bannings that we saw across Kenya. And the interpretations of those school bannings left me feeling very depleted because they were all wrong. all wrong.

Young people are a language, but it seems to be gibberish. And so we sit in a space where we attempt to translate what young people are and saying, look, this is what young people saying. they say this is what they mean.

And this is what they require from us as the older generation, we are molding them and bringing them up and grooming them to take over power responsibility in the years to come.

So that's number one.

Number two, we are also in the process of now seeking funding to do this thing we are saying, youth transitions intelligence and how we are practicing it to actually have young people in our programs going through that leadership training, that grooming, impartial values, et cetera, through different mentors through different conversations within the purview

Of our program so that when they come through our program, and we are not even bringing them in as youth, know, as young people, youth youth, we are bringing them in different segments because we've already done a segmentation study. seen the different needs across different contexts of young people. they come in, take them within the in which they are. them

The skills, the tools, the opportunities and the to then come out of our programs and enter into this world where they can make a difference. and the third thing we're doing is now the media arm our media arm is called under the acacia in itself is a maasai word meaning oneness and unity of purpose our logo is the emblem of the umbrella acacia acacia tree in

Kimasai it's oldepesi and so our media arm is called under the acacia ideally sitting under this umbrella acacia tree and one of the things we are doing the media arm is to give voice and visibility to the issues of young people by speaking to young people themselves and speaking to people who work with alongside for young people just to give visibility to

The issues around young people and the issues that we are gathering from our youth transitions intelligence framework that is currently trademark so these are the things we are doing one of the things we've done is we have a podcast under the acacia podcast it's on youtube at nabusha leadership institute because is the channel for the umbrella work we are

Doing one of which is that particular podcast under the acacia we've just started we are doing fundraising and we are talking to various people employ employers and different entities as we develop our youth transitions intelligence so that we are speaking are understanding the language young people are speaking and therefore you know creating a world that

We will we are the minority in that world and so we have to create a world and it's responsibility to do that because we are the ones with the skills and the knowledge and the experience it's our duty i to explicitly and openly build a world for young people they will be the majority in that world and then leave that those responsibilities and that world to

Them to carry forward into the 22nd century so that's that's the work we do it sounds very ambitious but it's also quite simple well it's both ambitious and simple i've done this work i did my thesis popular culture urban culture i've written academic papers on culture and young people including those gen z protests so me this is part of how i feel i am

Giving back to the world by creating this thing that must outlive me and then leave young people to run it and carry it forward into the future so that's what we're doing at naboisho of course naboisho is a maasai word i have maasai roots myself and so really leaning on to that cultural system of going back our roots and of course our symbol is the acacia

Tree the acacia tree is very hardy it grows in spaces where very little rainfall or where it can get very hot we find relief and sucker under the acacia tree in a nutshell that's that's that's we are and that's what i'm doing currently thank you so much doc for sharing what you're doing with our listeners for sharing your time with us we really really

Appreciate it and we don't take it for granted and we would love to have you again on this podcast it was such an interesting discussion you are again one of the guests that i am extremely happy that i was able to land you're someone who is obviously a very big inspiration to me on a personal and professional level and again thank you so much for being here

To our listeners if you've gotten this far into our podcast one you have to be a subscriber of fronts.co and we're grateful so grateful for you guys because without you we wouldn't be able to do the kind of work we do here we wouldn't be able to have guests as cool as dr caroline on our podcast we wouldn't even have a podcast in the first place so the fact

That you continue to support us you continue to just share our work as widely as you have is something we're absolutely grateful for so i just want to let you know we don't take you guys for granted and yeah with that we will see you on the next edition of the do south podcast have a lovely day we'll catch you in the next one next